April 23, 2024 - 4:24pm
Greetings from Auburn, Alabama
Hi, folks. I've joined this group because I'm looking for help in making salt rising bread, an apparently original American concoction. Obtaining a cheesy starter is the most frustrating task I've undertaken in recent memory. I've read the books and tried the different recipes, but no success yet. If anyone can give me any helpful suggestions, I'd be most grateful.
Sincerely,
William
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Hi William,
When you say you've "read the books and tried the different recipes", which specifically? It helps to know what you've tried already. What I'm reading says the King Arthur instructions seem to work pretty well.
https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/classic-american-salt-rising-bread-recipe
Hi, TwistingSister, thanks for asking. The main books I've read are Salt Rising Bread, by Genevieve Bardwell and Susan Brown; Succeeding With Salt Rising Bread, by Laura Wheeler, and the salt rising bread portion of The Complete Book of Breads, by Bernard Clayton, Jr. I've tried the King Arthur recipe, too. Interestingly, I succeeded in making some salt rising bread back in the early 1990's by using the salt rising yeast that King Arthur sold at the time, but it's no longer available. So I need help as my perseverance is needing a refill.
William
I did a search on Internet Archive, and got a couple hits, but they were scholarly articles from around 191x. Interesting, but not terribly helpful. Salt Rising Bread is mentioned in a couple of older books (see below), but nothing more detailed than the King Arthur article.
I did read the comments on the King Arthur article. A couple looked helpful. Temperature for the first incubation is apparently vital. One comment suggested using an Instant Pot on Yogurt function. Another (on a different recipe) suggested using the Keep Warm function, above an inch or so of water.
A couple of comments talked about the TYPE of cornmeal - not using overly processed cornmeal?
The comments are worth skimming.
The most entertaining comments revolve around the odor of the dough and bread. There were some heart rending entries about schisms caused by filling the home with the scent and the non-baking partner being less than amused.
There's a truly ancient (1990s?) website that has several recipes:
http://saltrisingbread.net/
One of those recipes cites (and has links to) a 1961 Master's Thesis at Cornel which has a recipe and discussion:
http://saltrisingbread.net/index_files/Page645.htm
They show several pages from the thesis (in addition to the recipe), but not, alas, the entire thing.
The book Manna, Food of the Frontier, by Gertrude Harris, is the only source I found which mentions the possibility of saving some of the initial ferment for the next loaf. Pretty much every other source says you MUST start fresh each time. (You can see Manna on Internet Archive.
https://archive.org/details/mannafoodsoffron0000gert/page/46/mode/2up )
I've never made Salt Rising Bread, and think my family would revolt, if the odor is as strong and pervasive as the literature suggests.
Best of luck!
I've read one account that related a person who made SRB regularly always added some dried starter from the previous batch to the new starter. He said it made getting the starter more reliable as well as making it "cheesier."
Best!
William
Apparently, this starter prefers warmer temps than a sour dough starter. I assume you've done a search on TFL? So, you may have seen this. Last post, which oddly enough, was just added last month to a thread that is 14 yrs old.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17044/salt-ring-bread-how-does-it-work There are many other threads on salt rising bread, but I didn't go through them to see how useful.
Good luck.
Hi, Moe, and thanks for the comments. I did brows topics on TFL and didn't see any specifically that discussed SRB, but I didn't check them all. Does TFL have a search function that I may use? I just joined and am not familiar with the details of the forum.
SRB is unusual in that it uses bacteria, not yeast, as the rising agent. Some folks say 97 deg. F is the ideal temp to cultivate the starter, while others favor 105 - 115. I've bought an incubator to control the temperature and haven't found the perfect one yet. Laura Wheeler's book says the bacteria is found in the wheat germ and that modern milling has eliminated the wheat germ in both modern flour and corn meal. I bought a wheat mill to grind my own flour, but that hasn't worked for me.
For many years there was a commercial salt rising yeast sold by King Arthur Flour, but that is no longer available.
Regards,
Williajm
I just searched using the search phrase salt-rising in the TFL search box, and got some hits.
Search is in the top, right corner. There are numerous threads on the subject, so you should find some help.
It sometimes takes awhile for the results to show up, so be patient. Make sure you're signed in, too.
I've found plenty of articles re salt rising bread using the search function. They should keep me busy and hopefully give me some ideas I haven't tried, thanks!
William
https://youtu.be/1Uu_WBXA-4I?si=RDDeb518XAlrg9ux
Been thinking about making it for years. Never had the guts to try. The idea both fascinates and repulses me.
I've watched Mary's video and tried her recipes, but they haven't worked for me. It's a good video, however, and her recipes probably work for many folks. There are apparently many factors involved with obtaining a good starter, and, so far, I haven't found the right combination to get the one I want. It should smell cheesy and a little sweet, otherwise it's not the right one. Some bacteria give off a very unpleasant odor, and I don't use those. I did one time and got a bread that also had an unpleasant odor and flavor. So I'll keep trying, because I love salt rising bread toast.
Thanks for your help.
William
William, you have probably read everything online you could find, so I'm not posting anything you don't already know, but here are a few interesting tidbits.
The leavening gas of this bread is hydrogen, rather than carbon dioxide. (So don't stick your nose in the starter jar with a lit cigarette in your mouth.)
The following is from "The Disquieting Delights Of Salt-Rising Bread", by Harold McGee:
"Where familiar fermentations convert food carbohydrates primarily to alcohol or to lactic or acetic acid, Clostridium perfringens produces a cocktail of organic acids that includes acetic and lactic but also butyric — the characteristic sharp smell of aged cheese — as well as propionic — typical of Emmental-style swiss.
Milk in the starter seems to boost the butyric, but I’ve found that even dairy-free breads can sometimes be good and cheesy. It should be possible to select clostridium cultures and starter ingredients to produce distinctive flavors reliably. (Moe: "Oh, yeah??")
The most useful practical survey for the salt-rising experimentalist is a 2002 article by Reinald S. Nielsen in issue 70 of Petits Propos Culinaires. Nielsen had started making salt-rising bread in the 1950s, and over the years collected and tested old recipes and sent samples to a microbiology lab for analysis. He discovered that cornmeal is a far richer source of Clostridium perfringens than wheat flour, but that various materials can serve as slow but workable sources of starter microbes. Not just all kinds of grains, milled or flaked, conventional or organic, including packaged breakfast oatmeal and shredded wheat, but even bark from oak and black locust trees."
The above article also answers a question asked by Diassiter (a TFL member, not a Greek philosopher) on another salt bread thread as to whether the bacteria are present in the grain or the air. Boiling liquid is poured over the cornmeal, or potato/grain of choice, which kills the pathogens. However, Clostridium perfringens remains in a dormant or spore state and is revived by the hot liquid. It becomes active when the temp returns to a liveable range. Baking ensures the bacteria are killed, but these spores have been found to NOT produce toxins in bread starters.
I also read a piece where of five starters, 3 failed, 2 succeeded. Two of these sat side-by-side. One good, one bad. It's a crapshoot.
Thanks, Moe, for the article excerpts. I think I'd read them all before, but they were a good refresher. I have presently 3 loaves in pans doing the final proof. The starters I tried last night appear to be working, at least as far as the rising part goes. They smell unpleasant, but not as bad as others where I've used potatoes. Whether the final product will be satisfactory remains to be seen. Interestingly, I used popcorn that I ground into flour. I had tried this before with no success. The difference was that the first time, I ground the popcorn with a wheat mill that uses a blade (like a Vitamix), but this time I used popcorn flour that I ground using a friend's wheat mill that crushes the grains against a stone. I wonder if the other milling process destroys the part that contains the bacteria spores? After all my failures, I'm about to decide that I had all the factors, temperature, etc., correct except for the source of the bacteria. That MAY be the most important criteria, but the jury is still out. Wish me luck that these loaves turn out properly.
William
Can't wait!
The cornmeal I ground from popcorn yesterday did the trick, and the bread turned out pretty good.
She tries the potato and the cornmeal versions and she says she prefers the cornmeal.
It is a very interesting watch. Informative!
How does it taste? What was the process like?
although it was not as cheesy as I would have liked. I've read that if you save a little (1/4 C) of the sponge each time and add it back into your next starter after it cools to the proofing temperature, the bread gets cheesier. I forgot to save some of the sponge as I was amazed at its bubbling action. I filled one of the pans too full of dough and it overflowed.
The corn meal I used for the starter was coarsely ground and gave the finished bread a crunchy taste. Also, I think I've read that the C. Perfrigens bacteria may interfere with the wheat gluten, which may account for the crumbleness of the slices. While I like the texture of my bread, my wife didn't share my enthusiasm and said I have a ways to go to get a salt rising bread like we used to buy from Waites' Bakery in Birmingham, AL (they are now closed, unfortunately).
Best!
William
With recipes in chapter 4...
https://youtu.be/5bG0wK5IGG8?si=Kgyq-WNA_D47wzcQ